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Post by yugular on Jan 21, 2012 2:12:09 GMT -5
Good stuff. Discussion is better than silent agreement/disagreement!
I played accidentally 5 MBC matchups yesterday and the day before. My record is 2-1, 1-2, 2-0, 2-0, 2-0. One of those matches (2-1) was interesting build that splashed red for Lightning Bolt and Blightning. I didn't encounter Fume Spitter once during those matchups, how regularly it is played? Maybe I was just lucky (5 matches is not much) but I didn't have any problems in the games maintaining one or two guys in the BF.
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Post by High_Gene on Jan 23, 2012 7:52:03 GMT -5
I'd also rather disagree on your (Matti's) evaluation on the aforementioned arguments. On the other hand, MBC needs to be adapted to fight Infect. Maybe since Infect was/ is on the decline, the match-up really isn't that bad.
A general note from a passionate MBC player: Many pilots don't get the full power out of the deck, simply because they don't have the experience (yet). However, they may be able to find their way to the top with it since the power level of each card is just so high. Therefore, it is relatively forgiving with respect to misplays.
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Post by gabochido on Jan 23, 2012 14:02:05 GMT -5
Can you give some examples as to how MBC beats infect? I think that with the edict effects it can combat the hexproof/protection instants, with the discard effects, it makes infect run out of steam quickly and with the rest of the creature removal, it just makes sure infect never has enough creatures on the table. However, is MBC fast enough for this? Would you agree with this? is there anything more to add?
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Post by High_Gene on Jan 24, 2012 4:42:20 GMT -5
It's pretty much mentioned already. Black decks in general, but especially MBC because of color restrictions of Geth's Verdict, has Edict effects that circumvent pump and/or protection. As early as turn 1, the black player can force their opponent to sacrifice a creature (Innocent Blood). Of course, turn 1 Forest, Lotus Petal, Glistener Elf, Glistener Elf, turn 2 pump to oblvion can still screw you. But black has also access to Snuff Out, however which only circumvents pump. I'll see if I can do a MBC deck tech/ primer video in the near future. However, since I'm a Paper Magic player, I could need some friendly help with the really current metagame online.
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Post by gabochido on Jan 24, 2012 12:50:49 GMT -5
I'm sure many of us will be glad to help and collaborate with you in whatever you write.
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Post by yugular on Jan 25, 2012 14:22:46 GMT -5
It seems like I need more testing against MBC. Maybe I was just lucky? Dont know... Thanks for the feedback. I will update the OP later this week if I get more playtime with the deck.
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Post by High_Gene on Jan 26, 2012 8:08:55 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that the MBC match-up is unbeatable for Infect (even though I'd estimate it to be in favor for MBC).
The thing with Infect in general is that it really is able to win turn 2-3 more or less reliably (goldfish), which leads to the need of aggressive Mulligan decisions for the opposing decks in game 2 and 3 (I assume that most decks just don't have the space do have answers against Infect in the Maindeck). Either you got your answer in your oppening hand (along with some lands to cast it) or you just bet on your luck that the Infect player doesn't have the nuts hand (which is why people - incl. me - don't like to play against it). That, in turn, makes match up analysis quite difficult in my opinion.
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Post by RockBass on Jan 27, 2012 18:42:39 GMT -5
My experience as a MBC player against Infect:
MBC is a dog game one usually. Boarding in Duress and Distress effects are your key to victory. Snuff Out also increases in value since you're not worried about your life total.
You can race Infect, but you need to be aggressive with your mulligans, resign yourself to a later board state (at the expense of keeping the opponent off kilter), and play a lot more conservatively than normal. Corrupt and Tendrils aren't going to save you.
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Post by grumpyoldgamer on Jan 27, 2012 20:48:54 GMT -5
My experience as a MBC player against Infect: MBC is a dog game one usually. Boarding in Duress and Distress effects are your key to victory. Snuff Out also increases in value since you're not worried about your life total. You can race Infect, but you need to be aggressive with your mulligans, resign yourself to a later board state (at the expense of keeping the opponent off kilter), and play a lot more conservatively than normal. Corrupt and Tendrils aren't going to save you. How do you feel about Apostle's Blessing as a MBC player? Obviously it doesn't do a lot against sacrifice effects, but it does offer protection against more classic removal. Is it a problem, or do you focus post-board on destroying your opponent's hand instead of his creatures?
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Post by RockBass on Jan 27, 2012 23:16:19 GMT -5
My experience as a MBC player against Infect: MBC is a dog game one usually. Boarding in Duress and Distress effects are your key to victory. Snuff Out also increases in value since you're not worried about your life total. You can race Infect, but you need to be aggressive with your mulligans, resign yourself to a later board state (at the expense of keeping the opponent off kilter), and play a lot more conservatively than normal. Corrupt and Tendrils aren't going to save you. How do you feel about Apostle's Blessing as a MBC player? Obviously it doesn't do a lot against sacrifice effects, but it does offer protection against more classic removal. Is it a problem, or do you focus post-board on destroying your opponent's hand instead of his creatures? It's always a slight concern, but post board MBC has so much discard and removal that it's a lesser issue. The main concern is always that one/two punch of Glistener Elf and Invigorate.
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Post by High_Gene on Jan 28, 2012 1:59:24 GMT -5
When doing my MBC deck tech, I'll remember to dedicate a decent spot for the Infect match up.
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Post by dougbiss on Jan 30, 2012 10:41:08 GMT -5
I think this is one of the decks that can be moved to the Tier 1 section, don't you think Yugular? I've been monitoring the pauper Daily Events to see what versions of Infect are doing well. There are three interesting things to note: 1. The discussion on Cystbearer vs. Rot Wolf has not been decided as both keep getting played. I think the real answer is that if you have to rely on either one, things haven't gone the way they should. 2. Gitaxian Probe is being played more often than it was, and Apostle's Blessing is being played less. This goes against my own play preferences, but this is based on the decks that win more... so the proof may be in the results. 3. Two other cards are sneaking in now and then, both of which I will now be considering. The first, Seal of Strength, lets you play a pump spell on turn one when you don't have the elf and save it for later. This is how Llanowar Augur was being played, but this is a much better version because it isn't triggered in upkeep only, can be used right away, and it's not on a killable creature. The second is Land Grant, which is just being played in place of forests in a few successful decks. You can thin your deck just a little bit while using them, but I don't think they have much of an overall benefit when you consider that Duress can grab them and that they can be countered.
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Post by High_Gene on Jan 30, 2012 16:11:24 GMT -5
When casting Land Grant for its alternate cost, you need to reveal your hand, which can be quite disadvantageous since your opponent can time their removal correctly to screw your all-in.
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Post by kyroswolf on May 24, 2012 21:44:52 GMT -5
Here is the last version of Mono G infect I ran. Bling note: it's all foil except the Rancors and Invigorates. Can't seem to find those. Lands (18) Forest x 16 Tranquil Thicket x 2 Creatures (14) Glistener Elf x 4 Blight Mamba x 4 Ichorclaw Myr x 4 Cystbearer x 2 Spells (28) Lotus Petal x 2 Gitaxian Probe x 4 Groundswell x 4 Mutagenic Growth x 4 Vines of the Vastwood x 4 Rancor x 4 Apostle's Blessing x 2 Invigorate x 4 Sideboard Apostle's Blessing x 1 Fog x 3 Hornet Sting x 4 Nature's Claim x 3 Predator's Strike x 2 Sandstorm x 2 I initially net decked the core list but it has been tuned for my preferences. I like Cystbearer over Rot Wolf for the extra 1 toughness. The potential for card advantage the wolf gives would be nice, but it has never panned out for me. Also if you are at 3 mana you want to dump multiple pumps onto an ichorclaw myr or elf, and just win on turn 3, hence only the two 3 drop creatures. Gitaxian Probe is invaluable for both dig and to see if the coast is clear before you dump your hand on an all in win shot. Rancor on Ichorclaw Myr = LOLs vs many decks. Matchup Analysis Mono W beats (Good to Fair) Game 1 you have a slight advantage, especially on the play. Don't be afraid to use a pump to save you elfs from their Javalineer. Get you damage in fast and kill them before they drop golems and skyfishers. Sideboard +1 Apostle's Blessing +4 Hornet Sting -1 Gitaxian Probe -2 Groundswell -2 Mutagenic Growth Now things are a bit worse for you. They have brought in Prismatic Strands, Standard Bearers, and Guardian of the Guildpact. Of these Standard Bearers is the worst. When you draw a Hornet Sting you hold it for that guy, since he shuts down all your pump. While you keep the Elves in you really want to protect you Myr in Games 2/3. Prismatic Strands means nothing to them and Guardian doesn't have protection from it. Possible includes from AVR: Abundant Growth - While you are primarily Mono G, this deck runs enough Phyrezian mana that you can get in a situation where you kill yourself. This could alleviate some of that incidental damage. It also is a cantrip, which any G deck would welcome.
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Post by yugular on Jun 3, 2012 2:53:51 GMT -5
Interesting decklist. I still think Rot Wolf > Cystbearer. There aren't that many frequently run spells that kill the wolf but not cystbearer, especially when you will have pump available anyways. So the upside of Wolf is just very good imo. Where do you live IRL? Foil Invigorates are pretty expensive, but they are still available. For example a playset of exc foil invigorates in MCM is 36€ (45 USD) and two sellers have that available. If you aren't in Europe and are interested I can buy those and forward to you to USA. PM me and we can work it out. Rancor is also printed as FNM foil, which isn't hard to find. But the original Urza's Legacy foil is harder to find, I have that in my cube and it is beautiful
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