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Post by yugular on Jan 12, 2012 10:53:59 GMT -5
[Infect] Primer
I. Introduction Scars block introduced infect to the game and it was quite obvious that dealing 10 damage is easier win condition that dealing 20 damage. Not only it is faster to deal ten dmg, but infect is very effective in creature fights and also prevents regeneration and screws many combat tricks.
Since the cardpool with infect is very limited it hasn't made other aggressive strategies obsolete, but pauper still has one tier 1 deck with infect. And it is very explosive!
II. The Deck
Manabase Deck is monogreen and manacurve is really slow, therefore the deck can afford running only 16 to 20 lands, but there are also build with up to 22 lands, though some of those lands can be considered as spells. Fixing isn't needed, but some lands offer some nice synergy/utility.
Tranquil Thicket: Better in topdeck mode than Forest. Topdeck mode however isn't the game where Infect aims and therefore very few builds run this land. Teetering Peaks: Functions like spell in the deck. Uncounterable, free pump. Seijiri Steppe: Functions like spell in the deck. Uncounterable, free protection and evasion. Lotus Petal: Enables explosive first turns. Dead topdeck.
Infectors 10 damage is the goal and the deck uses pump to deal that. But the deck needs some creatures to be pump targets. Most builds use 16 most efficient creatures:
Glistener Elf: All star in the deck! Comes down at turn 1 and can win the game on t2/t3. Ichorclaw Myr: Two mana 1/1 which is hard to block efficiently. Blight Mamba: Two mana threat with regeneration. Rot Wolf: Three mana threat that can also offer some CA.
Some other options are: Cystbearer: Three mana 2/3 Corpse Cur: Four mana 2/2 that also recurs your creatures.
Pump & Protection The deck uses pump and combat tricks to steal games as fast as possible. Some of these spells also offer protection, which is very important.
Groundswell: +2/+2 or +4/4 for 1 mana Giant Growth: +3/+3 for 1 mana Invigorate: Free +4/+4 Mutagenic Growth: Free +2/+2 Predator's Strike: Trample and +3/+3 for 2 mana Rancor: Gives power boost and trample, hard to deal with for opponent. Vines of Vastwood: Gives hexproof and +4/+4 pump Apostle's Blessing: Protection
Sideboard Options
Fog: For aggro decks and mirror Hornet Sting: Green removal Sandstorm: Mass removal Ranger's Guile: Cheap protection from removal Nature's Claim: Affinity hate
III.The Deck Lists
yugular's infect link coming up...
IV. The Matchups
Infect - Mirror: Very luck dependant. See more discussion in this thread in first page.
Sideboarding: Fog is clearly the most wanted sb card in mirror match and can define the course of the game.
Affinity - Even/Good: Both decks are able to explosive starts, Infect is slightly favorable in g1 but Atog and Multiple frogmites/forgers are hard to deal with. Trample is often needed to connect as Affinity can usually play more creatures to the battlefield.
Sideboarding: Nature's Claim makes their mana even worse and of course destroys almost everything in the deck. Hornet Sting can deal with disciples, but not with anything else. Ranger's Guile helps to deal with Galvanic Blast.
Delver Blue - Good: Turn1 Glistener Elf is devastating against Delver. They don't play many creatures so infect can also "waste" some pumpspells to get board advantage. It is important to keep mana up to disrupt counters.
Sideboarding: Hornet Sting kills delver if it's unflipped. Side in more protection if you have it in SB and trample effects aren't really necessary against delver and can be sided out. Ezuri's Archers or spells that deal with fliers are handy in this matchup, not necessarily needed though.
Izzet Control - Even: This matchup is decided by luck, but can be slightly favorable to Izzet. Drawing many creatures and having protection available is crucial. Keep mana up to dodge burn! Remember that Rolling Earthquake will come at some point!
Sideboarding: Corpse Curs can be good tech against Izzet, since by turn4/5/6 you will have creatures on the GY. Trample effects aren't useful, but protection is needed.
MBC Rats - Very Good: One of the best matchups for Infect. MBC cannot usually put blockers that matter on to the battlefield and trample effects will punish them hard. MBC aims for long game whereas Infect will finish the game in few rounds. MBC's discard is only/mainly sorcery speed which is also nice when Infect goes to topdeck mode. Also you can keep flooded forests for discard fodder if needed.
Sideboarding: Matchup is pretty easy and personally I don't devote any slots for sideboard against MBC (or it's BR variant). Corpse Cur is something which can bring back discarded creatures and can be nice.
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Post by yugular on Jan 12, 2012 10:54:32 GMT -5
Feedback and discussion appreciated as always! Especially matchup analysis is important!
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Post by gabochido on Jan 12, 2012 18:07:43 GMT -5
So I played a couple of intense mirror matches against Matti. Here is the version I netdecked (with maybe some minor tweaks):
15 Forest 2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Blight Mamba 4 Ichorclaw Myr 4 Glistener Elf 3 Rot Wolf
3 Predator's Strike 4 Rancor 4 Groundswell 4 Invigorate 4 Vines of Vastwood 2 Ranger's Guile 4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Lotus Petal
Sideboard 2 Viridian Longbow 2 Nourish 3 Fog 4 Hornet Sting 4 Nature's Claim
I haven't really played it that much so some of the cards may not be ideal.
I'll discuss the games I had with Matti, then I'll go a bit into some card evaluation.
NOTE: MTGO did not store the games we played on my client and I didn't write down the numbers so I'm writing these from memory. Matti, you can correct me if I remember the details wrong.
Round A Won the dice Roll Game 1 I had a great draw and Matti had to mulligan down to 5 but he played a glistener elf first and I only had a blight mamba, which, for this match up, is just a 2 mana glistener elf. However, I forgot about the fact that infect leaves -1/-1 counters and foolishly blocked and pumped my mamba at the first opportunity. This got us back to a more even situation. However, after that I drew a creature and he didn't and that was that.
Game 2 +3 Fog, +4 Hornet Sting, -4 Groundswell, -2 Ranger's Guile -1 Predator's Strike Matti started with an elf, but I was actually able to play 2 elfs on my turn using a lotus petal. My plan was to block his elf and regain the initiative with my other elf. However, that left me unable to play the fog I had in my hand so it might have been best to just leave the petal unbroken and block, using the fog if he had a trample effect that threatened for lethal. It turned out to be ok for me because, even though he had the rancor, he only had one invigorate and only got through 6 counters on me and had no creatures to play. I attacked with my elf and invigorated it, expecting a fog, but found none. I only had one forest in play and none in hand, but I drew another elf and played it. Matti played a forest and a rot wolf tapping himself out meaning one of my elves would get through for lethal damage with the other invigorate in my hand.
Round B Won the dice Roll Game 1 Got the nut hand with an elf, rancor, lotus petal, invogorate and predator's strike. this would have meant 10 points of damage in the second turn, but an elf he played absorbed 1 point leaving him at 9 counters and 5 cards but me with 1 forest and 1 card in hand (a myr). I played a myr and he played a myr, I then attacked and he of course had to block. I played predator's strike on my myr and he used an unkicked vines of vastwood to nullify it, but I also had a vines and the trample damage went through dealing the necessary damage.
Game 2 +3 Fog, +1 Hornet Sting + 2 Viridian Longbow, -4 Groundswell, -2 Ranger's Guile We exchanged creatures first but then Matti had one more creature and played a kicked vines of vastwood on it. I could have used my own vines on it at that point but decided not to. He then just played invigorate and finished me off.
Game 3 Matti put the pressure on me and got me down to 9 counters, while he remained at 0. I stopped the last point of damage by blocking a myr with a rotwolf and pumping the rotwolf with a mutagenic growth just to draw a card. This helped me dig into my deck and find an elf, then a mambar then another elf and some pump spells. Meanwhile, Matti's drawing skills really lacked finnesse and he just drew lands, while having another land in hand. His board of lands was no match for my slowly developing army.
After the games we both agreed that this matchup is extremely luck dependent and that the basic strategy is simple to follow.
Play first, attack and pump, always block unless you have a fog or a vines to stop opposing pump (or they have no cards). Mulligan untill you have fast creatures or you will lose anyway.
Card discussion:
Being the first to attack is important, that's why glistener elf is one of the most important cards and the lotus petal can be a big help in this matchup, it can make the mamba also become a glistener elf, effectively at the cost of a mulligan.
Blight mamba is just a 2 mana 1/1 in this matchup. Also, remember that creatures WILL die after combat due to the -1/-1 counters remaining there, pumping them up will only help if it means killing the oponent's creature or getting some more poison counters (or in the case of the rot wolf, drawing a card).
Fog is a huge card for this matchup. It forces the opposing player to attack slowly, not using up more than two pump spells if a green mana is available because the card disadvantage it can cause. Green has no way to counter this so as long as you have one in hand, you always have one extra turn and that's all infect can need.
Vines of vastwood is great at not only pumping up your creatures but also good to foil the opponent's pump spells. Both Ranger's guile and Apostle's blessing only target creatures you control so they don't work that well in this matchup. Apostle's blessing at least has the benefit of making your creature unblockable so I think its a better choice in general.
More creatures, faster is better. There are very few cases where a single creature with lots of pump spells will win against 2 creatures with no pump spells. However, they need to come in fast. Having said that, 3 mana is too much for this deck as the creatures need to be out early. I think 3 rot wolf is enough. I also think the card draw clause is better than the 1 point of toughness the cystbearer gives, specially in this matchup where creatures always die if blocked.
Trample is also very important as this deck often ends up just needing a little reach.
I didn't get to play Hornet Sting so I still don't know if its a good card in this matchup. It would seem so, since it kills most of the creatures in the deck or uses up one of their pump spells. Always use it on your turn if you can unless you have lots of them to make sure the pump spell goes to waste (other than countering your hornet sting). The viridian longbow is a better solution, but the equipment cost of 3 seems slow for this matchup, where most games are decided by turn 3.
Changes to deck.
Looking back at this analysis and the games we had I would make the following changes to my deck: Maindeck -2 Ranger's Guile +2 Apostle's Blessing Sideboard -2 Viridian Longbow, -2 Nourish + 1 Fog + 3 Sandstorm
I actually liked the tranquil thicket, but I only saw it in play once, in a draw where it coming into play didn't affect me. I'd have to play some more to get a feel for it slowing the deck down vs smoothing a land heavy draw. I would also have to try out the Teetering peaks to see if they convinced me. I didn't see them make a huge difference in our games.
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Post by grumpyoldgamer on Jan 12, 2012 18:25:40 GMT -5
Great work guys. A few quick questions:
- Cystbearer vs Rot Wolf. How do you feel about these creatures and how they compare with one another? - Lotus Petal. Matti had none and Gabo had a few. Do you think that they are actually good in this deck? - None of you were playing Gitaxian Probe. Do you think that it's good in Infect, or that it's more important to play extra pump spells? - Most Infect decks run between 15 to 17 creatures. Do you think that a variant with more creatures and less pump could be viable?
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Post by gabochido on Jan 13, 2012 0:36:59 GMT -5
- Cystbearer vs Rot Wolf. How do you feel about these creatures and how they compare with one another? I prefer the card drawing aspect of Rot Wolf. I think in most case you'll be running the rot wolf with trample and pump, and the opponent will be scrambling to stop those poison counters. Getting an extra card helps to keep up the pressure. - Lotus Petal. Matti had none and Gabo had a few. Do you think that they are actually good in this deck? I found the Lotus Petal to be quite beneficial in the few games we had. Speed is very important in this deck and it certainly gives that. The glistener elf as a one drop can create a few second turn wins. Having the lotus petal you make both the blight mamba and the myr one drops and increase the chances of that second turn win happening. - None of you were playing Gitaxian Probe. Do you think that it's good in Infect, or that it's more important to play extra pump spells? It could be worth it, since it basically makes your deck smaller and gives you some useful information about the opponent since you don't really care about life. I'd have to try it out but at this point I don't know what to take out. I'll take a look at some example decks that have won dailies. - Most Infect decks run between 15 to 17 creatures. Do you think that a variant with more creatures and less pump could be viable? I actually would prefer more creatures but at two mana or less and unfortunately (or more like fortunately!) they don't exist. I think having more bigger creatures, while giving you a bit of reach, reduces your chances of getting the turn 2 or 3 kill. In other words, I'll take gitaxian probe over an extra 3 casting cost infect creature.
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Post by yugular on Jan 13, 2012 3:24:12 GMT -5
Great work guys. A few quick questions: - Cystbearer vs Rot Wolf. How do you feel about these creatures and how they compare with one another? Rot Wolf is miles better in my opinion. How many spells there are that kill Rot Wolf but not Cystbearer? Not that many I guess, my Wolf's haven't been killed by one for sure. In combat the difference is irrelevant (because any pump makes the creature so big) and if the Wolf dies you still get the card. - Lotus Petal. Matti had none and Gabo had a few. Do you think that they are actually good in this deck? They are in mirror for sure! Other than that I am unsure. I think they provide more sick starting hands where you have high chance to seal the game on t2. But a list without them is a little bit more consistent. Any spell countered from Lotus Petal is clead CDA right? And this deck can handle only so much CDA. Pump spells are already opening the deck for some serious CDA. - None of you were playing Gitaxian Probe. Do you think that it's good in Infect, or that it's more important to play extra pump spells? I don't own probes. Haven't tested or haven't seen anyone playing against me. Can't say. - Most Infect decks run between 15 to 17 creatures. Do you think that a variant with more creatures and less pump could be viable? If there were any 1 or 2 cc creatures.
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bobblyigg
New Member
I've got a raging Brainstorm and I'm not afraid to use it
Posts: 47
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Post by bobblyigg on Jan 13, 2012 8:38:36 GMT -5
Rot Wolf is much worse because the average power for creatures in pauper is two. It trades one for one with just about anything. Cystbearer needs to be double blocked before you are forced to waste a pump spell.
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Post by yugular on Jan 13, 2012 8:53:09 GMT -5
Rot Wolf is much worse because the average power for creatures in pauper is two. It trades one for one with just about anything. Cystbearer needs to be double blocked before you are forced to waste a pump spell. I generally want to pump my creatures anyway, and give them trample. I tried Cystbearers but eventually changed back to Wolf. For me personally only reason to run Cystbearer before Rot Wolf would be a meta with lots of 2dmg burn spells. I think -1 toughness is good trade off for possible CA.
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Post by gabochido on Jan 13, 2012 17:04:41 GMT -5
I feel exactly the same way about the rot wolf as yugular. However, I'd be willing to give cystbearer a try to see if he feels stronger. In general the fact that they both cost 3 to play make them both very weak in this deck that really just wants to win by that turn with free pump. I find that when you do have to play one of those, you're almost in top deck mode hoping to get in those last points of damage and that's why getting the extra cards vs surviving against more creatures seems more useful. I should point out that most of the winning lists I saw had rot wolf and not cystbearer so that should probably hint at rot wolf being generally better.
I'll give both the gitaxian probe and cystbearer a try when I have some time.
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Post by dougbiss on Jan 14, 2012 8:40:26 GMT -5
I've played Infect more than any other deck since I've been back on MTGO, so I'll add my opinions as well.
Rot Wolf was worse than Cystbearer when Infect was viable in Standard Pauper because it was much more likely to die to removal. In Classic, the Rot Wolf is almost always better since a game where I'm relying on the three drops for the win is a game that has already drained my hand and the cards will probably be needed.
I don't run the Lotus Petals, but I see their value. In addition to getting out the 2cc creatures one turn early, they are even better to give the turn 1 Elf the needed protection to stay alive. There are very few ways to kill that elf if I have Apostle's Blessing or Vines in hand. So why don't I use them? Because I always seem to regret not having one more pump or protection spell when I have them. This is usually when I'm using them to get out the 2cc creature.
I used the Probe in Standard Pauper because the card selection was lighter and it was a method to cycle through my cards faster. I haven't found it necessary in Classic, there are already too many good cards to fit them all.
I don't think more creatures and less pump would be better even if the creatures were to exist. The fastest wins are the hands with more pumps, not more creatures.
As for deck lists, I ran a version without Apostle's Blessing for a while and I would never do it again. It is too good not to include... it's protection and evasion on a single card. I feel it is always better than Ranger's Guile.
I'll put my list up later. It's slightly different.
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Post by gabochido on Jan 14, 2012 18:42:19 GMT -5
Awesome information dougbiss. This is exactly what I want to read and hear: playing suggestions brought in from experience.
I hope we can get some more of this for other decks.
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Post by dougbiss on Jan 16, 2012 10:05:54 GMT -5
This is how I remember my latest build:
17 Forest
4 Glistener Elf 4 Inchorclaw Myr 4 Blight Mamba 3 Rot Wolf
4 Invigorate 4 Vines of the Vastwood 4 Rancor 4 Mutagenic Growth 4 Apostle's Blessing 4 Groundswell
The final six cards vary a bit, but they are always some combination of these:
Predator's Strike - Generally too slow, almost always inferior to Giant Growth once Rancor is out.
Lotus Petal - Helps on turn 1, otherwise you'll almost never be happy to see it.
Gitaxian Probe - When you're sick of all your other options, or think they're all inferior to what you're already running. Probing helps find that first creature or land, but it leads you to keep hands that are missing cards you need and hoping to pull them.
Giant Growth - Can be better than Groundswell, Predator's Strike or Mutagenic, but it all depends. If you T1 Elf, and then have no land drop on T2 you're going to wish this was the card in your hand instead of Predator's Strike or Groundswell. Combos with Mutagenic and Invigorate for the T2 unblocked kill with only one land. Every other card in your deck fails to do this.
Briar Shield - Meh. I use it, but it's not strong. I rarely regret drawing it, but it's never more than a 1-of. It, too, can give you that T2 unblocked kill when you don't have a second land.
Llanowar Augur - It's nice to have a T1 blocker who can help you next turn to make the kill, but it's useless as protection. Also never more than a 1-of.
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Post by yugular on Jan 20, 2012 7:02:12 GMT -5
I have now played more matches against MBC and here are my matchup thoughts:
MBC Rats - Very Good: One of the best matchups for Infect. MBC cannot usually put blockers that matter on to the battlefield and trample effects will punish them hard. MBC aims for long game whereas Infect will finish the game in few rounds. MBC's discard is only/mainly sorcery speed which is also nice when Infect goes to topdeck mode. Also you can keep flooded forests for discard fodder if needed.
Sideboarding: Matchup is pretty easy and personally I don't devote any slots for sideboard against MBC (or it's BR variant). Corpse Cur is something which can bring back discarded creatures and can be nice.
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Post by dougbiss on Jan 20, 2012 8:34:27 GMT -5
That's interesting, Yugular. My experience does not match yours as their -x/-x effects that don't end (like Fume Spitter), sacrifice effects (like Innocent Blood) and their extra creature hate in the sideboard is usually enough to keep the board clear. I'm glad it works for you.
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Post by gabochido on Jan 20, 2012 12:52:09 GMT -5
I agree with Doug here. I always felt that mbc had a good matchup against infect, specially thanks to all the sacrifice effects. I'm gonna have to challenge you to an mbc vs infect duel to confirm.
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