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Post by nyukon on May 3, 2012 6:12:52 GMT -5
Wherein the cast discusses Helvault issues, Avacyn Restored Pauper Cube updates, and Mystical Monster vs. Faeries deck match ups. Also, LOL Cats. Link: www.mtgcast.com/?p=24777
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Post by gabochido on May 3, 2012 8:27:09 GMT -5
Cool podcast guys.
I had originally writen and submited a post on the helavault stuff, but I take it all back. I still think that far too many magic players have real issues with entitlement regarding what they believe they should get from the company that created and supports their favourite game, but I've decided that its just not worth discussing anymore so I've removed my post.
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Post by RockBass on May 4, 2012 12:00:29 GMT -5
Cool podcast guys. I had originally writen and submited a post on the helavault stuff, but I take it all back. I still think that far too many magic players have real issues with entitlement regarding what they believe they should get from the company that created and supports their favourite game, but I've decided that its just not worth discussing anymore so I've removed my post. To quote War Games, "the only way to win is not to play."
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Post by grumpyoldgamer on May 4, 2012 12:06:27 GMT -5
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Post by jcrodd7776 on May 4, 2012 15:30:10 GMT -5
Another great ep. Sorry Mikey but I agree with Chris something is better than nothing (I have the right to change my opinion 10 years from now
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ANZ
Raging Brainstorm
Posts: 90
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Post by ANZ on May 4, 2012 19:22:44 GMT -5
The only part i think it's "unfair" is getting less product than you have ordered.
The Helvault stuff is a free bonus. If they didn't have it, i'd still play it. Seems illogical to complain about it. If you want nothing extra, you don't HAVE to accepted it, you know. I only got a dice, because my store had a single Helvault, and it wasn't enough to support all players. You had to choose between a dice or an Oversized card + token. And everyone was happy for getting free stuff.
Pre releases are great. I had lots of fun (as i always do).
Well, it was a good episode, all in all.
"Loyal CAT-har"
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Post by mikeyk159 on May 6, 2012 19:02:28 GMT -5
Not to be mean here, but think about it this way. You go to a rock show that has been hyped up for months. The sponsors are promising you that it will be the best thing of all time. For only 10 bucks a ticket no matter what! Finally it's show time... They pull the curtain back and out pops Nickleback, then when they are done, that's the end of the show. Sure there were flashy lights and what not, but still.. Nickleback. Or look at it this way. Wizards promises you free stuff at a prerelease... They hyped it up for months since the set first came out, you look at the big box all night and finally when it gets opened, after all the months you have been waiting, out pops a cow turd... A free spin down that i could buy for a dollar? I guess cause its free I can't complain.. A big card that I can't use in a real tournament? Guess its free??? A double sided token? ? Really?? Ok, now this is some bullcrap. Where is all the special stuff they promised??? I don't understand at all how you can't complain about this. What if the prereleases were 5 bucks more and the Helavault was still the same??? Then you would have basically paid 5 bucks for all the stuff you got in the vault. If you tell me you wouldn't complain, then I have to believe your disagreeing with me for 2 reasons. Either A) Because you really could care less, which I don't see possible. B) You really really wanted some tokens, sure... or C) You defended this game to the death so much already, because of your love for it, that you just can't see past anything they do anymore. There could also be a reason D), which would be your trolling me and disagreeing with me, just to say I'm wrong.. I guess this is also possible. I'm sorry, but prereleases are for everyone!!! Not just new players, but for everyone! A prerelease is a demo of the new set for everyone to enjoy, wizards has said this for years!! If you don't believe that, than that is an issue that you will to come to terms with on your own. If wizards doesn't care about people who have been playing as long as someone like me (10+years), after all the money I have spent, all the bullcrap I've gone through, all the tournaments I've gotten dream crushed at... Then no, I won't defend wizards. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, as this is not my intention. But there's nothing I can do but be as blunt as possible.
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ANZ
Raging Brainstorm
Posts: 90
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Post by ANZ on May 6, 2012 21:59:39 GMT -5
You're surely not offending anyone. Discussion is healthy.
If i had to pay for the helvault, i would indeed be mad. But i don't really see why this possibility should even be considered, as stores were prohibited to charge extra for it, and if they did, they'd be punished.
It's free stuff. The pre release alone is worth it, and it should for both newer and older players. The Helvault is just an unnecessary gimmick, and if someone is actually more hyped about it than the event itself, i think it's just missing the point.
I too don't think it was anything special, but i didn't had to do anything extra to get it. Even if there was no Helvault, i would have had the same amount of fun for the same price. Why would i expect anything grand? Why would i let the Helvault blind me of the real deal? I don't get how are people complaining.
You say you are playing for 10 years, you have been sending them the money, gone through bullcrap, had dreams crushed. All of those, were you expecting to be rewarded for it? If that's the sole reason you play this game (and i'm sure it's not), something is wrong. You said it yourself that the pre release is a demo of the new set, and that is exactly what it was, wasn't it? How an awesome helvault relates at all with that? Even the absence of a Helvault would not change that.
I'll try to work with that Nickelback (i had to google this) metaphor as best as i can. That situation does not relate to what actually happened. You paid for a show you didn't even know what's going to be. Literally, blindly bought a ticket just for the word of the sponsors.
These are the crucial differences: You didn't pay for something you didn't know what was. You paid for the pre release. You know for sure you'll get 6 AVR Boosters and a promo Moonsilver Spear. And maybe, if you do well, more boosters. And thats what you're paying for. See how it differs from the band example?
Well, this is coming from a guy that got a miserable dice and is glad about it. From wizards viewpoint, i think they should have indeed split the premium helvault's contents among all helvaults, but i have no idea if that'd be possible. Not because i think its unfair that some got excellent stuff for free, some got bad stuff for free, because they could avoid this whole (and incorrect, in my opinion) mess.
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Post by jcrodd7776 on May 6, 2012 22:05:41 GMT -5
Mikey, No trolling here but seriously I've been playing golf for 20 years and when I play in a SCRAMBLE which is a tourney for less skilled players it stinks so I see where you are coming from . BUT you are the minority in this situation in that you have been playing alot longer then most MTG players so where as you dont like the chotsky shit wizards is pushing most of the new players do. I almost signed up for prerelease solely based on the Helvault. I have been playing for a little over a year. BTW what do you think SHOULD have been in Helvault ?
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Post by RockBass on May 6, 2012 22:07:16 GMT -5
Since I've started playing the game I've had two experiences like this. The faction packs for Mirrodin Besieged, which while cool in theory meant that a player had to pick Phyrexia or post a horrible record. And the second being the Helvault prerelease.
Anyone who thinks that Wizards is going to give out anything above and beyond promo cards, stuff they already make, or extras that they have lying around, is probably just kidding themselves at this point.
So, yeah. Wizards of the Coast doesn't "owe" any of us shit. Regardless of how long we've played. The argument that veteran players felt like they should have gotten more is silly to me. It seems like veteran players should know better by now.
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Post by mikeyk159 on May 7, 2012 0:33:32 GMT -5
Since I've started playing the game I've had two experiences like this. The faction packs for Mirrodin Besieged, which while cool in theory meant that a player had to pick Phyrexia or post a horrible record. And the second being the Helvault prerelease. Anyone who thinks that Wizards is going to give out anything above and beyond promo cards, stuff they already make, or extras that they have lying around, is probably just kidding themselves at this point. So, yeah. Wizards of the Coast doesn't "owe" any of us shit. Regardless of how long we've played. The argument that veteran players felt like they should have gotten more is silly to me. It seems like veteran players should know better by now. You haven't been playing for a very long time, so just FYI (again, not trying to be mean), Wizards has been pulling shit like this for years (you can say shit on here and I didn't know?) and every single time they do, they **** it up somehow, the stuff they ended up giving away, turned out to be crap... If I can't expect a company to respect their customers, then I guess I'm the biggest idiot in the world. If them giving us crap, even if its free, especially after cutting off something like the MPR program! Which was also free! Is what is to be expected, then I after all these years, now that I finally know this. I'm just about done. Most of us are tired of this.. If your going to hype up something, then we should expect something good, not crap. If you don't think this is correct, I don't know what to tell you. If they were planning on giving away stuff they had lying around, then they should of told us that. Cause the helavault was very miss leading to everyone. ANZ: I'm not saying anything about the prerelease itself... The tournament is fine, its the same as usual. Its the hype of an added bonus to get more people to come out and spend there money, promise free stuff and then its just like... BTW, the free stuff was the crap I took on Tuesday. Also, the Nickleback analogy is actually close... Because your promising something awesome to someone and then when they get to the show, you gave them crap to look at, is what I'm saying. @jcrod: What do I think should have been in the vault? Well for starters, if you really wanted to give life counters, how about the old school ones with the gear looking things on them. Something like this. www.amazon.com/Utra-Pro-Magic-Gathering-Planeswalkers/dp/B001F0BEJUNot stupid spin down dice you get in a fat pack. That is just really dumb. I also think instead of oversized cards, if you really didn't want to give foil cards, then give away alternate arts of certain cards like restoration angel or griselbrand. The tokens I suppose were expected, not much I can say about that. They also could have given away some textless cards from the new set.. Do you know how awesome that would be? For 1 time only to give away maybe a texless Avacyn??? I'm just saying that this promotion was half assed... I'm not trying to pull anyone to my side, I understand that I have my own opinion and everyone else has theirs... I don't hold it against anyone...
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Post by gabochido on May 7, 2012 10:15:30 GMT -5
I apologize if I offend you but...
Regarding the pre-releases, its true that they are open to everyone and that everyone is attracted to getting new cards. But the focus of the way those events are organized is towards new and beginning players. They are what makes the business grow and have to be the focus, from a business point of view. Veteran players can get their time to shine in the bigger, more serious tournaments. I think a veteran complaining that gimmicks on a pre-release are lame is analogous to a 17 year old complaining that a party for 10 year olds is lame.
If you think they could have given out things that would have been better for you, its great to say it, but I think its totally disrespectful to call them stupid because they didn't give you what you wanted. If you're the kind of person that tells their friends or parents they are idiots because they didn't give you the right birthday present... well... not much more to say there.
Aside from being disrespectful, I feel there is an incredibly strong sense of entitlement in many people, specially veterans. Its true that people who have played for many years have also put in a lot of money into the game, but they have received exactly what they paid for. That a company tries to give out things that they think are exciting to attract new players and to make beginners feel more excited is no reason to DEMAND that veteran players also get something for themselves.
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There is a quote from Mikey: "Most of us are tired of this.."
I work for a video game that is similar to Wizards in many ways. We often have access to various numbers from satisfaction surveys and from online methods that gather data from people playing our games. These numbers usually show that the people posting in the forums, are a very small but loud minority but they all think that they must be a large and significant percentage of the market because all their friends think like that. I'm sorry to be the one to bring the news, but its not true. If 10 million people are playing magic and you know say, 10,000 people that think the same as you, that's 0.1% of the total population playing magic and is pretty insignificant.
I would remove the "most of us" from any kind of criticism or feedback directed towards a company because it makes whatever is being suggested or requested be taken less seriously.
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At the end of the day, Wizards is a company that sells a luxury product. They are not the government, you did not vote for them. Their product is completely optional and they have a transparent business model, you pay (around) 4 dollars for a booster from which you get random cards with which you can play many types of games. They organize tournaments with a cost of entry and a specified prize payout. You are free to buy their boosters and you are free to enter their tournaments. Their marketing campaigns are not what you are paying for, it is something they spend on to attract more players to buy their products. If you don't like their product or services you are free to not buy them. It is helpful if you give them respectful and constructive feedback about what you would prefer as an individual consumer from their products (and from their marketing campaigns, if that's what is bothering you), but you are not entitled legally or morally to anything else and if you think you do, then that's why you keep getting disappointed.
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Post by gabochido on May 7, 2012 11:44:58 GMT -5
I am even more sorry if this really, really offends you Mikey and I hope it doesn't but...
I think that, as ANZ pointed out, the Nickelback analogy is not quite correct. I'm feeling creative today so here is what I think this helavault thing is equal to:
You find out about a 30 dollar Radiohead concert (of which you happen to be a fan of) they market it saying they will be giving away something "truly awesome!".
You go and you find out the "truly awesome" things they're giving away are glow rods. You're disappointed because its the same glow rod sold in the "concert pack" which also includes T-shirt, a picture booklet and a CD of their latest album. Obviously you buy one of these packs every time you go to their concert so you don't need yet another glow stick. What you actually wanted was for them give away a CD with a couple of unreleased B-sides since that would have been cool for you.
You're even more disappointed when you find out that at the concerts held in some of the larger cities, they actually gave away codes to download some never before released acoustic versions of Karma Police and High and Dry.
Its human nature to be disappointed when expecting something in particular and not getting it and even more to find out others are, but at then end of the day, you are getting exactly what you actually paid for, an awesome concert of the music you love.
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Post by mikeyk159 on May 7, 2012 14:20:19 GMT -5
Prereleases are for everyone. Not trying to be mean here gabo, but your wrong. Prereleases is tournament of the year that is supposed to bring new players into the game, that is true. But it is also supposed to bring veteran/older players as well. Sorry to tell you, but prereleases is nothing more than a demo for newer players to learn and have fun at, while older and more experienced players get to help teach them and get the new cards. The focus is twords everyone, not just new players.
Nickleback analogy: Ok, I understand its a bit missleading, but what the analogy is... Basically, someone promises you something awesome and then it turns out to be crap is my point here, that's all.
I've spoken to many magic players since the helavault... I've also read plenty of threads online, that were started by people saying that the event was fun and the cards were cool, but most of the threads contain complains and WOTC themselves got a lot of complaints as well. So yes, most of us are tired of this, as it started before FTV legends and then hit the fan with FTV itself, which wizards has admitted they messed up with it and were sorry.
I'm tired of sorry's and what not, it should not be hard for a company to realize what their customers want and don't want.
If you are the type of person (not directed at gabo, making sure everyone knows that cause it sounds like im replying to only him:D) that has to be on WOTC side because you love this game and feel like not a lot of people are, then that is fine. I am choosing no to defend them is all.
Edit: Thread unlocked do to blah blah blah... Just be civil about this thing... I don't want people taking other peoples opinions the wrong way.
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